26 Jun
2023
26 Jun
'23
1:34 p.m.
There's a new Ghidra release last week! Lots of improvements to the
debugger, which is awesome. But this brings up some thoughts that have been
triggering my vulnerability-and-exploitation-specific OCD for some time now.
Behind every good RE tool is a crappy crappy database. Implicitly we, as a
community, understand there is no good reason that every reverse
engineering project needs to implement a key-value store, or a B-Tree
<https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/tree/master/Ghidra/Framework/DB/src/main/java/db>,
or partner with a colony of bees which maintain tool state by
various wiggly dances. But yet each and every tool has a developer with
decades of reverse engineering experience on rare embedded platforms either
building custom indexes in a pale imitation of a real DB structure or
engaging in insect-based diplomacy efforts.
I think the Ghidra team (and Binja/IDA teams!) are geniuses, but they are
probably NOT geniuses at building database engines. And reading through the
issues <https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/issues/985> with
ANY reverse engineering product you find that performance even for the base
feature-set is a difficult ask.
My plea is this: We need to port Ghidra to Neo4j as soon as possible.
Having a real Graph DB store underneath Ghidra solves the scalability
issues. I understand the difficulty here is: There are few engineers who
understand both Neo4j and reverse engineering to the point where this can
be done. I mean, why do it in Neo4j and not PostGres? An argument can be
made for both, in the sense that PostGres is truly Free and the most solid
DB on the market. The pluses for Neo4j are that RE data is typically
graph-based more than linear.
I spent the last two years learning graph dbs, out of some masochistic
desire and ended up getting certified - and I can still RE a little bit. I
will manage the team porting Ghidra to Neo4j if someone funds it. :)
Either way, sooner is better than later. There are so many companies and
people relying on these tools that it seems silly to do anything else.
-dave
P.S. Yes, I remember BinNavi used MsSQL installs for its data, and this was
annoying to install but ... I get why Halvar did it at the time. It's
because he had real work to do and building a DB was not it. I can only
assume Reven doesn't use their own DB? I mean the benefits for
interoperability would be huge between tools. . . like literally everything
you want to do with these tools is better with a real DB underneath.
27 Jun
27 Jun
10:08 a.m.
There is joernio's ghidra2cpg, not sure why they now seem to be pushing a
forked set of patches https://github.com/joernio/ghidra, probably the DB
format changes too rapidly or some other "we automatically intake unknown
relationships lost statically". That might get part of what you're looking
for, even though, it isn't an exact fit, bringing in some higher level
tooling, like all the graphql UI's that contextualize queries with type
context are so helpful, whenever I don't have context aware syntax support,
thar barrier to actually do anything limit's my enthusiasm so that only the
most impactful (perceived before getting too far) get my attention (and I'm
often wrong so :). I forget if joern still uses Neo4j, I am confident that
it's the best FOSS available for describing code/binaries right now.
Getting more tools in this space is a great initiative that deserves
attention. Being able to communicate so expressively, codifying knowledge
for bugs some helpers around supporting guided generation of queries for
arbitrary conditions, the benefits for invariant analysis (as can been seen
with Semmle/CodeQL) are extreme.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:46 PM Dave Aitel via Dailydave <
dailydave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org> wrote:
There's a new Ghidra release last week! Lots of
improvements to the
debugger, which is awesome. But this brings up some thoughts that have been
triggering my vulnerability-and-exploitation-specific OCD for some time now.
Behind every good RE tool is a crappy crappy database. Implicitly we, as a
community, understand there is no good reason that every reverse
engineering project needs to implement a key-value store, or a B-Tree
<https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/tree/master/Ghidra/Framework/DB/src/main/java/db>,
or partner with a colony of bees which maintain tool state by
various wiggly dances. But yet each and every tool has a developer with
decades of reverse engineering experience on rare embedded platforms either
building custom indexes in a pale imitation of a real DB structure or
engaging in insect-based diplomacy efforts.
I think the Ghidra team (and Binja/IDA teams!) are geniuses, but they are
probably NOT geniuses at building database engines. And reading through the
issues <https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/issues/985> with
ANY reverse engineering product you find that performance even for the base
feature-set is a difficult ask.
My plea is this: We need to port Ghidra to Neo4j as soon as possible.
Having a real Graph DB store underneath Ghidra solves the scalability
issues. I understand the difficulty here is: There are few engineers who
understand both Neo4j and reverse engineering to the point where this can
be done. I mean, why do it in Neo4j and not PostGres? An argument can be
made for both, in the sense that PostGres is truly Free and the most solid
DB on the market. The pluses for Neo4j are that RE data is typically
graph-based more than linear.
I spent the last two years learning graph dbs, out of some masochistic
desire and ended up getting certified - and I can still RE a little bit. I
will manage the team porting Ghidra to Neo4j if someone funds it. :)
Either way, sooner is better than later. There are so many companies and
people relying on these tools that it seems silly to do anything else.
-dave
P.S. Yes, I remember BinNavi used MsSQL installs for its data, and this
was annoying to install but ... I get why Halvar did it at the time. It's
because he had real work to do and building a DB was not it. I can only
assume Reven doesn't use their own DB? I mean the benefits for
interoperability would be huge between tools. . . like literally everything
you want to do with these tools is better with a real DB underneath.
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11:01 a.m.
Maybe not from a vuln hunter perspective, but from a threat hunter view we
usually mill out to targeting platforms, e.g., Vertex Synapse (commercial)
and/or MISP (open-source) for graph-ready pivoting and analysis
For example, TheDFIRReport hosts a MISP that contexts the process objects
template --
https://github.com/MISP/misp-objects/blob/main/objects/process/definition.j…
-- and fills it up with ATT&CK tags
Sure, I'd also context that with YARA or capa rules, but MISP etc also
supports embedding and mapping those. While the VirusTotal capa support is
not the full-context kind you get from the entire tool (VTE doesn't show
the `-vv`output, only the top-level jank), and it's also not capa-explorer
level where you get the function mappings, but I'd be curious to see the
behavior profiling and livehunting (which the YARA vt module now supports
Sigma-style rule checking against the behavior profiles) across, say, the
Immunity Security CANVAS leaked binaries that made it up on VT years back,
or other VT-visible exploit codes
What are the core problems attempting to solve here? For malware analysis,
it's typically mapping in changes, historical views, popular function
analysis, and evolution
For function analysis, all of the reversing platforms, e.g., IDA Pro (sub
BinaryNinja, sub Ghidra, sub Radare2/Cutter) have a capa-explorer plugin of
sorts, and usually commonly-found function analysis routines (for IDA Pro
it's called Lumina, but each of these also supports the concept, i.e.,
radare2 zignatures. Then there's also Writeprint and other more classic
techniques that work very-broadly
In terms of changes and evolution, malware analysis on the reversing
platforms hasn't seen much intooling, but they are capable. There's ASM2VEC
(of course, very different compared to node2vec/graph2vec but having
relevance) as seen in IDA Pro plugins such as --
https://github.com/McGill-DMaS/Kam1n0-Community -- (more on kam1n0 here --
https://mcgillnews.mcgill.ca/s/1762/news/interior.aspx?sid=1762&gid=2&a…
)
Is there a knowledgebase approach that is cross-functional and cross
vuln-/mal-/exploit-/threat- efforts to be had here?
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 9:24 AM Shane Macaulay via Dailydave <
dailydave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org> wrote:
There is joernio's ghidra2cpg, not sure why they
now seem to be pushing a
forked set of patches https://github.com/joernio/ghidra, probably the DB
format changes too rapidly or some other "we automatically intake unknown
relationships lost statically". That might get part of what you're looking
for, even though, it isn't an exact fit, bringing in some higher level
tooling, like all the graphql UI's that contextualize queries with type
context are so helpful, whenever I don't have context aware syntax support,
thar barrier to actually do anything limit's my enthusiasm so that only the
most impactful (perceived before getting too far) get my attention (and I'm
often wrong so :). I forget if joern still uses Neo4j, I am confident that
it's the best FOSS available for describing code/binaries right now.
Getting more tools in this space is a great initiative that deserves
attention. Being able to communicate so expressively, codifying knowledge
for bugs some helpers around supporting guided generation of queries for
arbitrary conditions, the benefits for invariant analysis (as can been seen
with Semmle/CodeQL) are extreme.
On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:46 PM Dave Aitel via Dailydave <
dailydave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org> wrote:
There's a new Ghidra release last week! Lots
of improvements to the
debugger, which is awesome. But this brings up some thoughts that have been
triggering my vulnerability-and-exploitation-specific OCD for some time now.
Behind every good RE tool is a crappy crappy database. Implicitly we, as
a community, understand there is no good reason that every reverse
engineering project needs to implement a key-value store, or a B-Tree
<https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/tree/master/Ghidra/Framework/DB/src/main/java/db>,
or partner with a colony of bees which maintain tool state by
various wiggly dances. But yet each and every tool has a developer with
decades of reverse engineering experience on rare embedded platforms either
building custom indexes in a pale imitation of a real DB structure or
engaging in insect-based diplomacy efforts.
I think the Ghidra team (and Binja/IDA teams!) are geniuses, but they are
probably NOT geniuses at building database engines. And reading through the
issues <https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/issues/985>
with ANY reverse engineering product you find that performance even for the
base feature-set is a difficult ask.
My plea is this: We need to port Ghidra to Neo4j as soon as possible.
Having a real Graph DB store underneath Ghidra solves the scalability
issues. I understand the difficulty here is: There are few engineers who
understand both Neo4j and reverse engineering to the point where this can
be done. I mean, why do it in Neo4j and not PostGres? An argument can be
made for both, in the sense that PostGres is truly Free and the most solid
DB on the market. The pluses for Neo4j are that RE data is typically
graph-based more than linear.
I spent the last two years learning graph dbs, out of some masochistic
desire and ended up getting certified - and I can still RE a little bit. I
will manage the team porting Ghidra to Neo4j if someone funds it. :)
Either way, sooner is better than later. There are so many companies and
people relying on these tools that it seems silly to do anything else.
-dave
P.S. Yes, I remember BinNavi used MsSQL installs for its data, and this
was annoying to install but ... I get why Halvar did it at the time. It's
because he had real work to do and building a DB was not it. I can only
assume Reven doesn't use their own DB? I mean the benefits for
interoperability would be huge between tools. . . like literally everything
you want to do with these tools is better with a real DB underneath.
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To unsubscribe send an email to dailydave-leave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org
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11:06 a.m.
Would it be easier to go from Ghidra -> BinExport -> Neo4j instead of
Ghidra -> Neo4j? The BinExport format seems a bit more
stable/documented to me (I have not played around with either in too
much depth though).
1 p.m.
I've been using Joern with Ghidra for a couple years. For my needs, the
ghidra2cpg project is too limiting. It works at the disassembly level by
mapping various CPU instructions for a few common archs via a
pre-patched bundled Ghidra build (ie, no custom loaders, processor
definitions, etc). As a work-around, I've hacked together an alternative
(worse) approach that operates on the decompiler level: a Ghidra script
that just enumerate every function and adds the decompiler psuedo-C to a
Joern project, using Joern's fuzzy C parser. It's a lossy hack, but it
mostly just works. But both options undermine a lot of the value Ghidra
provides.
A more ideal yet reachable solution that I've been toying with is to
write a proper Joern CPG frontend parser for PCODE. This could provide a
graphdb representations of the AST, CFG, CDG, DDG, and PDG, plus the CPG
glue tying them (and the parent PCODE) all together.
Joern switched away from using native neo4j a while back for performance
reasons, but they do provide an export utility to generate a neo4j-csv
so you can use graphviz, import into neo4j, graphml, etc.
The big question: is the CPG format an ideal graph representation? Has
anyone besides the authors' companies been working with at a high level?
What known limitations does it present? I'd be interested in seeing what
changes ShiftLeft and QwietAI have made. For reference, here's the
original academic research: https://www.sec.cs.tu-bs.de/pubs/2014-ieeesp.pdf
On 6/27/23 10:08, Shane Macaulay via Dailydave wrote:
> There is joernio's ghidra2cpg, not sure why they now seem to be
> pushing a forked set of patches https://github.com/joernio/ghidra,
> probably the DB format changes too rapidly or some other "we
> automatically intake unknown relationships lost statically". That
> might get part of what you're looking for, even though, it isn't an
> exact fit, bringing in some higher level tooling, like all the graphql
> UI's that contextualize queries with type context are so helpful,
> whenever I don't have context aware syntax support, thar barrier to
> actually do anything limit's my enthusiasm so that only the most
> impactful (perceived before getting too far) get my attention (and I'm
> often wrong so :). I forget if joern still uses Neo4j, I am confident
> that it's the best FOSS available for describing code/binaries right now.
>
> Getting more tools in this space is a great initiative that deserves
> attention. Being able to communicate so expressively, codifying
> knowledge for bugs some helpers around supporting guided generation of
> queries for arbitrary conditions, the benefits for invariant analysis
> (as can been seen with Semmle/CodeQL) are extreme.
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:46 PM Dave Aitel via Dailydave
> <dailydave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> There's a new Ghidra release last week! Lots of improvements to
> the debugger, which is awesome. But this brings up some thoughts
> that have been triggering my
> vulnerability-and-exploitation-specific OCD for some time now.
>
> Behind every good RE tool is a crappy crappy database. Implicitly
> we, as a community, understand there is no good reason that every
> reverse engineering project needs to implement a key-value store,
> or a B-Tree
>
<https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/tree/master/Ghidra/Framework/DB/src/main/java/db>,
> or partner with a colony of bees which maintain tool state by
> various wiggly dances. But yet each and every tool has a developer
> with decades of reverse engineering experience on rare embedded
> platforms either building custom indexes in a pale imitation of a
> real DB structure or engaging in insect-based diplomacy efforts.
>
> I think the Ghidra team (and Binja/IDA teams!) are geniuses, but
> they are probably NOT geniuses at building database engines. And
> reading through the issues
> <https://github.com/NationalSecurityAgency/ghidra/issues/985> with
> ANY reverse engineering product you find that performance even for
> the base feature-set is a difficult ask.
>
> My plea is this: We need to port Ghidra to Neo4j as soon as
> possible. Having a real Graph DB store underneath Ghidra solves
> the scalability issues. I understand the difficulty here is: There
> are few engineers who understand both Neo4j and reverse
> engineering to the point where this can be done. I mean, why do it
> in Neo4j and not PostGres? An argument can be made for both, in
> the sense that PostGres is truly Free and the most solid DB on the
> market. The pluses for Neo4j are that RE data is typically
> graph-based more than linear.
>
> I spent the last two years learning graph dbs, out of some
> masochistic desire and ended up getting certified - and I can
> still RE a little bit. I will manage the team porting Ghidra to
> Neo4j if someone funds it. :)
>
> Either way, sooner is better than later. There are so many
> companies and people relying on these tools that it seems silly to
> do anything else.
>
> -dave
> P.S. Yes, I remember BinNavi used MsSQL installs for its data, and
> this was annoying to install but ... I get why Halvar did it at
> the time. It's because he had real work to do and building a DB
> was not it. I can only assume Reven doesn't use their own DB? I
> mean the benefits for interoperability would be huge between
> tools. . . like literally everything you want to do with these
> tools is better with a real DB underneath.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dailydave mailing list -- dailydave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> dailydave-leave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe send an email to dailydave-leave(a)lists.aitelfoundation.org
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4 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Andre Gironda -
Dave Aitel -
David Manouchehri -
Jason Lash -
Shane Macaulay